TLDR: I am deeply impressed by Pope Francis’ humility, inclusiveness, deep spirituality, and wisdom. Read below for an in-depth summary of our meeting with him.
The best way to describe the John 17 Movement visit with Pope Francis on Tuesday, the 7th of November, is by way of comparison to another Pope visit a group of students from the American College in Louvain, Belgium, had with Pope John Paul II in 1989. First, the meeting in 1989 took place at a large conference hall in the Papal palace whereas the 2023 visit took place in a rather simple meeting room at Domus Santa Marta, a lodging facility where Bishops, Cardinals, and other Vatical officials reside when in Rome. Second, the 1989 meeting included a fair amount of security and guards around the Pope, whereas there was absolutely no security in the 2023 meeting. It was the Pope, his assistant and friend, Julia, his translator, and the thirty-four of us. Third, Vatican photographers were allowed to document the meeting in 1989, whereas no photography of any kind was allowed in 2023. Fourth, there was little interaction between Pope John Paul II and the group in the 1989 audience, whereas the 2023 meeting was a friendly exchange of conversation between the Pope and the group (as you will see below.) Fifth, the group in 1989 lodged at the North American College in Rome, whereas the entire Executive Committee of John 17 was allowed to stay in the Pope’s residence with their spouses.
The meeting started with brief introductions: Name, location of ministry, nationality. No mention of denominational label, position, education, etc. After this, Joe Tosini, the moderator of the meeting asked Pope Francis to expound on three hindrances to our Christian witness in the world. The Pope stated that fundamentalism of all types, proselytizing, and clericalism are toxic (the actual word he used was “Pestilences”) to our Christian witness. Fundamentalism is a lifeless pestilence that crushes people instead of giving life, and grieves the Holy Spirit. Proselytizing is more concerned with sheep-stealing than it is with bringing non-believers into a deep and salvific knowledge of Jesus. The last hindrance is clericalism which is “fundamentalism at the clergy level.” This is the behavior and belief of priests who see themselves as superior, above, and somehow better than the laity of the Church. These three dangers “put the Holy Spirit in a cage.”
Joe then asked Catholic priest, John Muir, to tell the Pope the story of how he and Joe met. They were together at the same golf course when Joe approached the young priest. After this, they had dinner and many hours of conversation about John 17. Fr. Muir didn’t know what to make of his new relationship with a famous protestant pastor, so he consulted with his Spiritual Director, “I asked my advisor if I should hang out with these protestant brothers and sisters. She said, ‘hang out with them because they seem to love Jesus more than some of your brother priests.” The Pope loved this little story and laughed at the advisor’s wisdom.
After this, Joe asked Megachurch Pastor Cal Jernigan to talk about his concept of “Loving Beyond.” Many of Cal’s members know that love of other is a Biblical mandate, but they seem to have a boundary beyond which they are not willing to go. They love up to a certain point, but Cal preaches openly that either love is willing to go beyond or it is not love at all. Pope Francis responded to Cal’s explanation of Love by saying that many of us are very comfortable “brushing our favorite sheep’s hair in our little groups. But Jesus didn’t teach this. He said ‘go into the highways and byways and compel them to come in. This is the way the Church has to grow. Imagine on the day of Pentecost a priest telling people who is ‘in’ and who would be ‘out’.” The Pope then added, “All in! That is Jesus’ way!”
At this point, Joe reminded the Pope of comments he made about the “Our Father” prayer. The Pope adds, “The first word of the prayer is very clear. ‘OUR’ means that God is our common father, regardless of ethnicity, denomination, gender, age, or financial status. All are included. All of us.” Then Joe asks David, a participant who works with an international relief organization to share his experience in Ukraine. David spoke about his humanitarian work there, and stated that the war has helped create unity as different groups work together for the common good, regardless of denomination. The Pope responded, “War is Defeat… Always! From WWI until now wars have never stopped. War is something against humanity. Investments in weapons yield the greatest returns. This is a big scandal because money is driving aggression against other humans. War is a defeat. No one wins… ever.” The Pope shared stories of going to cemeteries and crying when he sees the ages of the soldiers who have died. He imagined a mother receiving a congratulatory letter that her son died a “hero,” and her internal thoughts, “I do not want a hero, I want my son… 30,000 young people died on the Beaches of Normandy. Recently I went to Romania and everybody came out of their houses to greet me: Young, Middle Age people and Grandmothers. You know who I didn’t see? I didn’t see Grandfathers because they all died in the war. War is ALWAYS Defeat. War doesn’t end unless there are serious negotiations. We also have ‘baby wars.’ Wars that start from our unruly tongues. Our tongues need to be tamed.”
Joe then brings up the story of Pope Francis in the “Room of Tears.” (The small room off the altar in the Sistine Chapel.) “Can you explain why you didn’t put on the Papal shoes and ring?” Pope Francis lifts his pants up and shows us the shoes he wears. Then he says, “They were not orthopedic shoes.” We all laugh, but then he adds, “I didn’t want to become an idol to the people. I am the Bishop of Rome who is to preside in charity.” He then said that shepherds don’t wear red shoes. “They tried to give me a big cross, but I told them I prefer the cross I wear since my ordination. Then they tried to give me an elegant ring, but I told them I prefer my Bishop’s ring.” He stops and smiles, then he admits, “Of course, I have learned to compromise. I now use the big cross and ring on special occasions like Easter and Christmas.”
Joe asks, “why do you live in Domus Sanctae Marthae instead of the Papal Palace?” In 2013, when he was elected Pope, he chose to remain in the Domus Santa Marta, where he had lived for years. “The palace is not a place you live in, but a place you come to die. It is too spacious and grand. The bedroom itself is as big as this room… I would have become completely neurotic if I lived there. A Pope needs people around him and the Apartments (as the palace is known) lend to isolation and not to community. The Christian life requires people. I am worried about the USA. In the USA, more and more priests and bishops are not one with the people. They need to be WITH the people. In front of the people LEADING them. In the middle of the people encouraging them, and BEHIND the people helping them get untucked, pushing them on gently. We are supposed to receive everyone. We say, ‘we welcome sinners,’ but in practice we don’t really receive them. Our hearts should be, ‘All in, no one left out.’ Now, once they are inside, that’s another problem…”
At this point, Mary Curry and Lisa Jernigan shared with the Pope their impressions of him when they first met him and what meeting him has meant for them over the last few years. Lisa tells him she is very proud of the way he has included women in government at the Vatican and has placed them in positions of authority. The Pope responds, “we have forgotten the church is the spouse of Jesus… The Church is Female.” On his work of inclusion, Joe reminds the Pope about his advocacy for a church more open to LGBTQ+ people and his statement on a plane once, “Who am I to judge?” The Pope repeats, “All in, all in, all in, no one is left out.”
After this, Les Hughey, Peter Petrov, and Peter Wilson shared their appreciations of the Pope. Les appreciated his wisdom, Peter Petrov his efforts to focus the Church’s attention on reaching out to the young, and Peter Wilson appreciates the Pope’s humility, “God is raising up humble people to places of authority, people like you and Justin Welby.”[1]
After this, the Pope asked for our prayers and we all encircled him to pray for him. He bowed his head as Mike Herron voiced a beautiful prayer for physical, spiritual, and emotional strength for the Pope as he leads his Church and continues his work of unity around the world. After this, the Pope ended with the following words, “Continue to pray for me always. For me and not against me.” He left the room and we drifted to the Vatican grounds to do some sightseeing.
Now you know why I, an Evangelical Episcopalian, am so impressed by this Pope. His humility, inclusiveness, deep spirituality, and wisdom are truly remarkable. I leave you with some of his words not captured above, “Never let anyone or anything rob you of your joy in the Gospel!”
May our Lord continue to bless you,
Fr. Roman+
[1] Deep gratitude to Pastor Chris Curry for sharing his meeting notes with me.
